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This is another full transcript of Vito
Collucci’s interview with Tony Bryant. Sections in yellow are sections that
were edited into a youtube video titled “Tony Bryant interview Part 1” on the
FreeMichaelSkakel channel, while sections in blue refer to sections edited into
“Tony Bryant Interview Part 2.”
VITO: My name is Vito Colucci of Colucci
Investigations, in Stamford, Connecticut. Today's date is August the 24th 2003.
It is a Sunday. The time is approximately 7:37 p.m. and I am in Miami, Florida
- the coconut grove area - at the Wyndham Grand Bay Hotel in board room number
803 for the purpose of interviewing one Tony Bryant in regards to information
that he has on the Martha Moxley Murder. In the room is myself, Vito Colucci;
Tony Bryant; and Al Dresler who is my office manager at Colucci Investigations.
Tony, thank you for being here. Can you
please state your full name and spell it please, your last name?TONY: okay. Gitano Pierre Bryant. Last
name is B-R-Y-A-N-T, first name G-I-T-A-N-O.VITO: Okay. What was the middle
name again?TONY: Pierre. P-I-E-R-R-E.VITO: Okay, and your address, Tony?TONY: Is 11401 SW 72nd
Court, Miami, Florida
VITO: Okay. And how old are you?TONY: I'm 42 years old.VITO: 42. And your date of birth?TONY: 1/11/61VITO: Okay. And what is your occupation, Tony?TONY: I am a owner of a tobacco company
presently.VITO: Oh okay. What's the name of that
company?TONY: Tobacco and Candy International.
VITO: And you are the president?
VITO: What does that
encompass? Like, what do you do?TONY: We import cigarettes from Spain
and from Brazil and we sell them into the United States market.VITO: Okay, and how long have you been doing
that?TONY: 5 years.VITO: How long have you lived in the Miami,
Florida area?TONY: 6 years.VITO: 6 years. And where did you live before that?TONY: I lived in Arkansas... VITO: Okay.TONY: ...Little Rock; and prior to that
I lived in St. Louis, Missouri; prior to that I lived in Los Angeles; prior to
that I lived in Dallas, Texas; prior to that I lived in New York.VITO: Okay. Okay. Are you married?TONY: Yes, I am.VITO: And how many children do you have?
TONY: FourVITO: Four.
Okay, just their ages, we don’t need their names.
TONY: Fifteen, seven, two and six and a half
Very good. If I asked you their date of births, which I’m not, could you rattle
Yes, I could.
VITO: Okay, very good.
That’s a good father. Okay, basically, ... Now you
are aware that this is being videotaped? Right?TONY: Yes, I am.VITO: Okay. You’re here today
because you have information in regards to the Martha Moxley Murder case that
goes back to the 1970s, is that correct?TONY: That is correct.VITO: Okay. Let me ask you: Why
have you come forward, and I don't mean just today, I'm talking about fairly
recently.TONY: I really didn't come forward
under my own...my own efforts. I came forward based on conversations that I've
had with … interested parties in this investigation.VITO: Okay. Okay. Would one of them have been Crawford Mills?TONY: That is correct.VITO: Who is Crawford Mills?TONY: Crawford Mills is a
classmate...former classmate and a friend of mine from Brunswick.VITO: Oh! Okay, so he’s about the same age as
you?TONY: Precisely.VITO: Is he white or black?TONY: He's white.VITO: Whereabouts does he live now? Do you
know?TONY: Crawford lives in Lower
Manhattan.VITO: Lower Manhattan?TONY: Yes, in New York City.VITO: Do you know what he does?TONY: I'm not a hundred percent sure.
The last time we spoke he was working with …doing audio translations with the
UN so I'm not really up on exactly what he does now.
VITO: Okay, now when was the last time you either
saw him or talked to him?TONY: We spoke probably … about a year
ago.VITO: Okay. I'm gonna get back to him in a
little bit but what I want to do to start this off properly, Tony, is have you
bring us back to that time and place that night. Whatever you can remember to
the best of your recollection of the night that Martha Moxley got killed. Where
were you living at that time?TONY: In New York City with my mother.VITO: With your mother. Okay. The two other
parties, whose name that we have got, where were they living at the time, if
you know?TONY: Bur Tinsley was living in lower
Manhattan in Soho and Adolf Hasbrouck
was living in the Bronx.VITO: Okay, how did you meet them?TONY: We all attended, uh, Hughes high
school on the west side of New York in Chelsea. ...and we met as classmates
and..one thing led to another and we became friends. VITO: OK. Now, you also attended Brunswick
school. This was after…?TONY: Yes, prior to going to Charles
Evans Hughes I went to Brunswick for approximately 3 years.VITO: Did either Hasbrouck or Tinsley attended
Brunswick or any other Greenwich area schools?
Not to my knowledge.
Okay. How did the three of you’se come about to let’s say hang about the
Greenwich area? Was it…Through what friends?
TONY: Uh, well, it all
initiated through me.
TONY: I still had friends
in Greenwich and one weekend we decided to go up to Greenwich and hang out and
they liked it, and they met some people that they liked. And so we made it sort
of like almost a weekly thing.
VITO: Now when you
say Greenwich is there a specific part of Greenwich you’re talking about?
TONY: Actually Belle Haven
and right near, you know, the Round Hill Rd area.
VITO: Okay. Who were some of your
friends back then, , since you went to Brunswick school. So the initial setup.
my friends...David Straden, George
Phelps, Fabio Freyre, Crawford Mills, Neal Walker... Gosh, you’re killing me
here. Tim Hayden. VITO: No, that's okay. It's a long time ago.TONY: It's a long time ago. There are
so many of them. There's a lot. There’s a lot. VITO: When you would go to Belle Haven, the 3
of youse, you, Adolf, and Burt, was there a certain house that you would hang
around, that you were better friends with?TONY: We would go to the Walker's
house, and we would go to the Byrnes’ house. The Byrnes didn't attend...Jeff
and his brother didn't attend Brunswick, they attended other schools.VITO: How did you know Jeff then?TONY: Just from hanging out with
Neal...and I knew Geoff for Jeff for...since I started going to Brunswick, I
Okay, okay. The Walker residence, was there any children in that residence that
were your age?TONY: Yes. There's Neal and his sister.
Let me see if I can recall her name. Gosh, it'll come to me in a little bit.VITO: Who's Marjorie?TONY: Margie?VITO: Yeah. Is there a Marjorie?TONY: Margie. And then there's the
mother. I don't remember the mother's name.VITO: Okay.TONY: And it could be Marjorie but...VITO: Is that okay? Okay. Okay, now the..TONY: I guess it is Margie Walker.
Yeah.VITO: Margie? Okay.TONY: 'cause she was friends with
Martha, and so was I. I mean, I knew Martha too.VITO: Yeah, how did you know Martha?TONY: Just from hanging out at in
Greenwich...going to dances, and, y’know, being at Brunswick, and I also knew
her brother, her older brother. So, it was just...It was all intertwined. And
we all sort of used to hang out together.
Ok. Did you know the Skakel boys?TONY: I knew all Skakels.VITO: Any one more than another?TONY: Probably more Tom.VITO: Okay. Cause Tom is…
TONY: And…but Michael was in my class.
VITO: Oh, Michael was in your class?
Michael was in my class but we weren't very good friends.VITO: Okay. Okay. I’d like to bring up one
thing you did say to me on the phone. If I can, you
could verify it. You had said that you're not a big fan of Michael Skakel.TONY: I'm not a fan
of anybody but Michael and I never had an enduring...any type of enduring
moments that ever...at all...we've always been sort of adversaries.VITO: Okay, but I find that an
important statement and the reason I'm saying that is you said to me,
"even though you were never friends, and you're not a big fan of his, I
have to do what's right," I think were you're words to me.TONY: Sure, I just
wanted to know … I want everyone to know my story but that...you know, when
people ask me about Michael, I don't really...I mean, I feel badly for him but,
you know, just because I don't like him doesn't mean he should be incarcerated.
that's right. Let's try to go back to
that night in question. You were in Belle Haven?TONY: That's correct.VITO: And who was with you in Belle Haven?TONY: When I went to...We left from New
York on the train, we went into Belle Haven, I had Adolf Tinsley, I'm sorry,
Bur Tinsley and Adolf Hasbrouck in my… with my company. The first stop we made
was at the Walker residence.VITO: Okay, when you would go to Greenwich,
the 3 of yous, was that your mode of transportation: the train?TONY: We always took the train.VITO: And your parents were okay with that,
even though you guys were 14 or 15.TONY: Yes, my parents were fine with
that.VITO: And then from the train station, how
would you get to Belle Haven? TONY: We would either take a cab or
walk. It wasn't that big of a distance. But
we wouldn’t really walk, we'd hitchhike.VITO: Okay, and the same thing to go home?TONY: And same thing to catch the train
back or we’d have a prearranged...I'd have a prearranged ride.
VITO: Okay. Do you
remember any one of yous staying the night in Belle Haven at anybody's house?TONY: At the ... Well, Bur and Adolf be
- had also become friends with the Byrnes, with Jeff Byrnes, so they would
spend the night there. Me, I would spend the night at the Walkers. I‘d
sometimes spend the night at the Byrnes, Also knew the Engels … I knew a lot of
people in Greenwich – and I had a lot of friends there so it was like...it was
nothing that happened overnight.VITO: Just so we get this straight, you're
saying "Burr". When …every time you say Burr, you mean who...?TONY: Burt Tinsley.VITO: Okay, that's fine. You can
continue...You can say...I just wanted...TONY: I’ll say Bur and Adolf because
when we .. there was never a time when... I went with them when it wasn’t the 3
of us together.VITO: Oh, there was never a time when it
wasn't the 3 of you.TONY: When it wasn't the 3 of us
together unless they spent the night and I went back...because there was
multiple times where I would go back
because of things that my mom...and I had had to do the next day or some
previous commitments that I had, because of athletics or whatever.VITO: Okay. To the best of your recollection,
when you guys were in that era – of when
Martha did get killed - do you remember approximately how big you were at that
time? How tall and how much you weighed? I'm gonna ask you about the other two
guys.TONY: Okay. I was probably the smallest
of the three at 6 feet, maybe 160 - 170 pounds.VITO: Okay, so you're talking like...You were
born in 1961, that it was '65
[sic], that's 14 years old.TONY: 14 years old. Yes..VITO: Yeah, I saw … Your picture’s in the
yearbook and I could verify that. Now how about the other two guys? About…They
were bigger than you?TONY: Yes, yes. Bur was probably
6'2"-6'3" and Adolf was 6'3"-6'4".VITO: What age were they though back then?
Same age as you?TONY: They were a year older.VITO: So they were about 15 years old.TONY: Yes.VITO: But again, how big were they?TONY: They were 2 - 3 inches taller
that I was.VITO: Okay. As 15 years olds?TONY: Yes.VITO: So you're talking 6'2" - 6'3"?TONY: Yes.VITO: Now – an important question, Adolf is a
black fellow.TONY: That is correct.VITO: Right. How about Bur?TONY: Bur is a...I would say he was of
mixed descent.VITO: Okay. You say mixed...Now what do
you....?TONY: I would say probably Indian and
Caucasian or there may be some Asian blood.in the bloodlines...VITO: Okay. So could be...?TONY: Could be one of three things.VITO: You've met his parents?TONY: I met his brother.VITO: His brother. Okay. That's his full
brother?TONY: His full brother.VITO: Okay. So you think there could be some
Asian as well as a mixture of something else?TONY: Yes. Caucasian or Indian or both
or all three.
VITO: OK. Now, when you
were hanging out with them, and I go back to some of my memos from Bobby
Kennedy, you say that they were pretty wild - the two of them. I'm not gonna
ask you about yourself. But were they pretty wild at that time?TONY: Yes, they were. but you know,
let’s be fair... And all … I think I was a calming … I always had a calming
effect on everybody but I was sort of the catalyst of... If I went to drink a
beer then everybody drank a beer.VITO: Okay.TONY: If I was gonna smoke a cigarette,
then I wanted everybody to smoke a cigarette.VITO: Okay. What did the two of them do back
in that era? Were they drinkers? Did they do pot? Did they do other drugs? TONY: We all smoked pot and we all
drank.VITO: When you say 'drank', what would they
drink?TONY: To the best of my memory, I knew
a lot of beer. We drank a lot of beer...Also I know every once in a while…It
just depends on where you were; in New York, it was easy to obtain – alcohol -
hard liquor.VITO: Okay.
VITO: Did you ever go to
any of the country clubs at Greenwich with any of the kids there?TONY: Yes. I did.VITO: Ok. Do you remember who it was that you
guys would go with?TONY: Gosh…Not at this time. I remember
the clubs we'd go to...the Greenwich Country club or Stanwick, …
VITO: In Belle Haven.
we’d go to that club.
VITO: Were you able to drink?TONY: We were able to drink beer but
not hard liquor,
VITO: Okay. ---
TONY: Beer was easily obtainable.VITO: Okay. Again now, you guys took the train
in, the night in question, which was called.... which would be called mischief
night...TONY: We called it "Hell
VITO: "Hell Night"? Okay. Okay. That's fine. Lead me through it, like...you
told me before you arrived about 6 something?TONY: We arrived 6 or 6, 6:20, we
headed into Belle Haven. We stopped at the Walker's house. We probably got
there 6:30 - 6:40. Um ... Asked for Neal, they were having dinner and then Neal
told me that… to come back. So we went to their neighbor's house, 'cause it was
right next door. And we - They had a
refrigerator that we sort of helped ourselves to the beer.VITO: Okay.TONY: I swear it said
"self-serve". (joking)VITO: Okay.TONY: (Laughter) No, but we helped
ourselves to the beer and...I know we took about three 6-packs that night.VITO: Okay.TONY: Maybe a little bit more.VITO: Okay.TONY: And we drank one 6-pack, went back for Neil , he had homework
to do...VITO: So this was at the Walker's house?TONY: Yes.VITO: And this, where was this refrigerator
at?TONY: It was right next door, As you go
--- (drawing a picture on a piece of paper)
... It would
be, their house would be here ... it would be exactly their next door neighbor.
just like that. Oh, the Byrne's lived across the street right here. This is the
Byrne's house.VITO: Okay.TONY: And we went by there and we
picked up Jeff ...VITO: Right.TONY: ...later on and then we started
to do a little mischief but. It was a rainy and kind of a cold night, so we
really didn't get into what our normal swing is. We had toilet paper and
shaving cream.VITO: How many of yous were doing this?TONY: Oh gosh. There...We picked up
people all all along the way. So, it
could have been. Maybe at best six
VITO: Okay. Okay. And tell me just some of the
things you guys were doing.TONY: We smashed some pumpkins...VITO: You can't get arrested now... Too many
years have gone by.so.
TONY: (Laughter) That doesn't really concern me. We smashed pumpkins. We
threw toilet paper over the lines. We set it on fire what we could because it
was raining so it wasn’t very good. We shaved and soaked up some windows.
VITO: Now when you say you picked up some
people along the way. Do you remember anybody else like any of the girls in the
area?TONY: Well, we saw some of the
girls...It was like sort of a revolving door. Saw Ellen Ix, saw, oh gosh, what
is her name... .... .... (pause) .... VITO: That's okay if you don't remember now…
TONY: Well, she … Oh gosh…
VITO” She lived in Belle Haven?TONY: She lived 2 doors down from
Ellen... or 2 or 3 doors down from Ellen Ix. I wanna say ... I’ll remember her
name in a little bit.
Tony: It’s just… I'm trying to
refresh my memory... she married one of other my friends called Kevin Edwards.
So...VITO: Okay.TONY: I'll remember her name. I saw
her, saw Margie,
VITO: Did you see Martha at all?
TONY: saw Martha, saw..VITO: Who was Martha with when you saw her?TONY: Martha? When I saw Martha, she
was with...She was in the vi …well, we sort of ran into them in the back
of...there's a big mead behind this house here that runs all the way to the
Skakel house. [He draws an addition to the piece of paper.]VITO: Yeah, I noticed in the notes about that,
tell me a little bit about this.TONY: That was for sort of like our
collection place to sit, and smoke cigarettes, smoke some marijuana and drink
beerVITO: Okay. So was…TONY: And the parents couldn't see but
it was a big enough space to where if someone did get close you could scatter
and run and no one could catch you really.VITO: Behind whose house was this place?TONY: The house? It's really kind of a
weird place because it was behind a bunch of houses.VITO: Okay.TONY: If my memory serves me right,
this the Byrnes house, it was behind their house, it was in front of the Moxley
house, behind the Skakel house and also behind...I'm not really sure of the
name of the other 2 neighbors, I think one of them was either Engalls or
Kimble. I'm pretty sure it was Engalls.
VITO: Engalls, okay
TONY: Josh Engalls.
VITO: Right. Josh Engalls.TONY: We saw Josh that night too.
VITO: OK… OK
TONY: He hung for a little bit but
he had gotten in trouble so he got grounded so he couldn't hang with us that
night. VITO: How big of an area was this?TONY: It was huge.
VITO: huge… Like
TONY: I mean... In terms of…VITO: Half
a football field?TONY: Oh. No. ...I’d have to see it
again ... to me back then, it had to be like 2 or 3 acres.VITO: Oh, okay.TONY: It was a big place.VITO: OK, So it was good place for 14-15 year
olds...TONY: It was a - excellent place.VITO: ...to hide, do your cigarettes, pot,
VITO: grab some beers,
nobody bother you or see you there?TONY: Nobody. And if … The one...I'm trying to remember the policeman that used
to patrol Belle Haven. I can't remember his name exactly.VITO: Okay.TONY: But we would
get there, because we would position ourselves because we knew when he made his
rounds so we would sort of hide off and go off behind the walls or into the
bushes so he couldn't see because it was sort of an open area that you could
see into as well...VITO: Okay.
TONY: So it's a really good place to
sit down and … to…
VITO: Do your thing.
TONY: do our thing.
VITO: Okay. Okay, so you guys did that for a
while and then what happened?TONY: Well, it was starting to get
late. I'm sorta skipping through all the …VITO: That's okay, that's fine.TONY: because some of it does fade
...because I know we went down into...we went to the yacht club, we didn't go
in, we just sorta, you know, looked to see who was there by the cars and stuff
because we knew some of the parents' cars because there were certain kids that
we – we would hang out with or...you know, we knew they was there...and then we
came back into the mead, I always always call it the mead, back into this
area...VITO: Sure.TONY: And ... at that time, there was
probably maybe 8:30 - 8:45,
I saw Martha;
I saw Michael; I saw Tom...Coming. I
mean it’s in and out thoughVITO: Ok, so you see Martha Moxley, Michael
Skakel, and Tom Skakel?TONY: Tom Skakel, I saw Julie but I
just waved at Julie because Julie didn't...She didn't do what we did.VITO: Right.TONY: And if she did I...VITO: She was a lot older?TONY: Yeah ... She wasn't really ...
She didn't hang out with us.VITO: Okay.TONY: She didn’t hang out with us at
all. And so…
VITO: What kind of shape were you guys in after
drinking or whatever else was going on?TONY: I had a good buzz...
Not . ..
Slightly buzzed... I’d say lightly drunk.VITO: Okay, how about Adolf and Bur?TONY: Like I said, lightly drunk.VITO: Okay.TONY: and not extremely buzzed because -we had smoked some marijuana and we had also
drank probably at that point in time probably about three 6-packs
between maybe 5 kids.VITO: Okay. Okay ... And you brought these
6-packs back in that meadow area?TONY: Well, we were .. we tried
to...We… When we were coming back there were other refrigerators that we knew
on the way back so we collected more...VITO: Okay.TONY: so we probably... when we got to
that meadow, we probably had another 12 pack easy, - I mean two 6-packs.VITO: So there was a lot of alcohol to be
found in Belle Haven
TONY: a lot of, yeah
VITO: And you
guys knew where to find it?
VITO: Everybody there knew where to find it?TONY: It was very simple.
TONY: Very simple.VITO: Okay. Alright, so now we're talking
8:30-quarter to nine. TONY: Yes.
VITO: What happens next?TONY: What happens next is...Adolf always had a thing...He had met Martha previously,
and he had a thing for her...he really liked her.VITO: Okay. How did he meet her?
just from Belle Haven?TONY: Just from Belle
Haven and also we had some mixer that we went to...we went to like uh.. Gosh .I
wish I remember the name of the church...we went to a couple of mixers in...and
...He … I think he ... the first time he
met her was when - They have a street fair in Greenwich at the end of Sept -
...around the middle or the end of September,
TONY: and they close off the main
street, and they sort of have a street fair.VITO: Okay. Do you remember him ever approaching her to either
ask her out or make a play for her or anything at all?TONY: I know he would make gestures at
her but I think he was...he couldn't really...he didn't have the confidence.VITO: Now, who was this again?TONY: Adolf.VITO: Adolf.TONY: He didn't really have the
confidence to...to...That wasn't his style. He wasn't a very, at that point in
time, he wasn't a sophisticated person...Al was very immature.VITO: Okay. Do remember any kind of responses
that Martha would give to him?TONY: She was always sort of cordial
but she sort brushed him off...real .. kind of nicely.VITO: Okay.TONY: She would never say "Get out
of my face!" She was just really, you know…”Hey, we’re all friends here,
blah blah blah”...she was always that way; she was never a person that was, you
know,...very....I’m trying to think of a best term for this...She wasn't a
person that would let you down hard; she would let you down gently.
Vito: OK.TONY: : But she would never lead on.
VITO: OK.TONY: She didn't lead on.
VITO: Okay. OK. So are
you saying...When would he get brave about Martha to talk about her? After he
had some drinks in him or...?TONY: Of course.
TONY: Everybody gets brave then.VITO: Okay. And what would he do?TONY: And it was also some egging on,
because ...people would laugh and say...you know.. "I know what you're trying to do but.
She’s not interested" ….." Oh yeah, she is. she likes me, she likes
me"... But she doesn’t. VITO: Now, I know some of my notes from Bobby
Kennedy, you just let me know if that's occurring now or if it occurs after the
murder, where you state that...you didn't even … You didn’t want to use some of
the lang...I'm being really clean with this kind of vulgar...you said something
to the ef.
Now is this before... things [unin] say he wanted to
do to her?TONY: It was way before that,It
was, I mean, it had been going on for
about a month or so.VITO: Okay. Now, let me ask you now...and we
need you to...to the best of your recollection, to say what you remember him
saying no matter how vulgar it was, because this is important.TONY: He wanted to fuck
the shit out of her, and he wanted to go "caveman" on her.VITO:
Okay,now what does that mean? How would you...?TONY: Just take her, grab her, and have
her the way he wanted her.VITO: Ok. He would say this?TONY: Yes.VITO: So you and who else was present when he
would say this?TONY: Bur, Jeff ... Sometimes Neal.
VITO: Did he seem like he really wanted
this girl badly?TONY: No doubt in my mind. VITO: Okay.TONY: No doubt in my mind.VITO: How often would he talk
about this?TONY: It was kind of an ongoing thing...but
it's kind of weird because it would...during the week, if we weren't going to
Greenwich, he would sort of mention it, you know, a couple of times, yeah, I
really like her..."she's pretty, blah, blah, blah"
VITO: Right. Ok.
TONY: but if we were going to Greenwich, it
would just … just really get exacerbated… I mean ...just really hyped up.VITO: Okay. More than any other
girl, he would talk about her?TONY: I don't remember him talking
about any other girl.VITO: Okay. Any other things you
remember him saying about her at all? If you can...this is important...BecauseTONY: I mean...loved her beautiful
blond hair...I mean, he just ... He was in … he was completely, completely
intrigued with this woman, I'm sorry, with this girl.VITO: Intrigued or obsessed?TONY: I'd say obsessed.VITO: Obsessed with her?
VITO: What would you guys say to him
when you would hear this?TONY: We’d start laughing at him, you
know, saying, you know, "you need
to think about something else, you need to think about somebody else that's
more, you know, attainable because it's not going to happen.”
TONY: “ She's not even interested in
you."VITO: Would you guys really kid
him a lot? TONY: A lot. We would bug him… I mean, we would bug him
about it.VITO: Alright, So much so, you know how 14-15
year olds are, so much so where you kid a person a lot and they...almost get very upset about
it...because everybody's riding you about
itTONY: He would get defensive about it.VITO: Did he say "some day I'm gonna have her" at all
or anything?TONY: All the time.VITO: He would...?TONY: All the time. That's why I...he
said he's gonna have her. It wasn't "I'm going to..", "it's
gonna happen."VITO: Okay. He never said that about any of
the other girls from Belle Haven or Greenwich or anything?TONY: No, that's what so crazy about it
because he met a lot of other girls too.
VITO: Okay.TONY: But he talked about her and that
was his main focus.VITO: Okay.TONY: And I know
that...I'm trying to remember at one of the mixers ...I mean, that's all he
wanted to do is...and he got jealous of other guys coming up to her and talking
to her...VITO: He
did? Why? What would he say about that?TONY: He would just get upset saying,
you know, "I don't understand why she's spending her time with those guys
when she could be with me, I’ll take care of her... blah blah blah"VITO: Okay. Okay. Anything else
you remember that he said about her? Now, this is all you’re saying a lot ... a lot of this was about a month before
she got killed?TONY: It was…
VITO: Around that time frame?TONY: It was from the time he met her,
which is, I said like...beginning of
September, mid-September, until the murder, that's what he would talk about it.
And we probably had been in Greenwich 4 or 5 times between that period. VITO: OK. And this has got...this
proceeded to get worse with him...?TONY: It built up with him...it built
up tremendous.VITO: Okay. Okay.
TONY: Like I said, he wanted to go
caveman, that was...I'm trying to remember. There’s something he said exactly
and I'm trying to remember the precise wording of the phrase.VITO: So, you mentioned before
something about "getting her from behind, and dragging her"?TONY: Yes. That’s correct.VITO: Are you saying dragging her
by her hair or what?TONY: Definitely by her
hair. That's what the whole concept of...VITO: He
would say this?TONY: Yeah...but "going caveman,”
meant, you know …VITO: Right.TONY: ...grabbing and pulling off and...VITO: Okay.TONY: Not just picking up ... it’s
VITO: So this wasn't a one time thing, he said this
numerous times?TONY: Numerous times and I'm not the
only person that he said it to...I'm sure Crawford had said it… had heard it
and Neal had heard it. Jeff had heard it...I'm trying to remember all the
other...those were the...most prominent people we hung around with in Belle Haven. ***VITO: Was anybody there, whether it was kids
or anybody older, nervous about this situation with him at all?TONY: There were no other... There were
no … There was nobody else there.VITO: Nobody else. Okay. TONY: I mean it's not like...VITO: It was just you guys.TONY: No. It was just us.VITO: Okay.TONY: I'll tell who was a little bit
nervous...I think she...we made her nervous, it's Mrs. Walker.VITO: Mrs. Walker?TONY: Yeah. We made her nervous because
she knew we were kind of wild.VITO: Okay. Okay, Alright, now we're uh back
on "Hell Night" I think you’re
calling it, right? What happens
next?TONY: We all congregate and the number
of kids that could've been in the circle...it could've been 10. It could have
VITO: OK..TONY: Do I remember all the names? No.VITO: Okay.TONY: Do I remember what was happening?
Yes. We were smoking cigarettes, some people were smoking marijuana, some
people were drinking beers
TONY: and we were just talking.VITO: So where we’re ...what...it's about 9
o'clock now?TONY: It's somewhere around 9 o'clock.VITO: How high were these other two guys, Adolf
and Bur, at this point?TONY: I know I was...I was buzzing.VITO: Okay.TONY: And they had drank just as much
as I had if not more and...
VITO: How were they acting?TONY: They were … You have to
remember...this is "Hell Night", and everybody's excited. They wanted
... that the purpose of "Hell Night" is to do destruction to property
and to vandalize and to sort of leave your mark the night before.HalloweenVITO: Right.TONY: I was....... I .. We were wild.
It was at a fever pitch...We were...'coz the night had been kind of tame
compared to what it had been built up to.VITO: Okay.TONY: In the previous years, we’d done
all kinds of stuff: smash pumpkins on moving
cars, and all kinds of stuff. So this year was it really tamed because
of the weather.VITO: Okay.TONY: So at this point, I think, the
expectations had been high but the actual damage [unin] comparably low for this group...and for our…
you know, so they were sort of ready to blow up.VITO: And one of the comments that Crawford
Mills makes about Adolf: He says that Adolf was
"psychotic".TONY: (chuckles ) He was wild. He would
do - Anything you could dare him to do, he would do.VITO: What did he do back then? Like what type
of things?TONY: Throw bricks at moving cars,
break-ins ... anything ...
TONY: anything you put him up to.VITO: You sensed anything that
you dared him to do he would do.TONY: Anything you dared him to do, he
would do.VITO: If you dared him to take a
girl "caveman" style, would he possibly do that?TONY: There's no doubt in my mind.VITO: Okay. Okay.TONY: You have to understand one other thing, he had a...constant sorta
... he had gasoline...he was the engine and Bur was the gasoline. VITO: Okay.TONY: And Bur always kept him
going...kept that motor going.VITO: How?TONY: He would just antagonize him, and
tease him into doing things, and "I betcha..." you know, "I
betcha you won't do that" and, you know...VITO: And he would do it?TONY: Oh, he would do it..VITO: You’re friends… You were
friends enough with these guys, you were with these guys on a daily basis,
okay. TONY: Daily basis.VITO: Run together, the three of
yous, it's not with anybody else, definitely the three of yous, whether it was
in New York or Greenwich?TONY: That's correct.VITO: So at that time and through
that era, let's say, you knew them as well as anybody? Is that safe to say? TONY: That's safe to say. VITO: Okay.TONY: That's safe to say.VITO: You guys, the three of
yous knew each other very well.TONY: So It appeared, I mean...VITO: Okay. TONY: You never knew anybody a hundred
percent, but I thought I knew them pretty well.
VITO: Crawford says on here: "There was something wrong with him, all who had to
do was look at him to know it."TONY: Oh, you could tell.VITO: What
kind of demeanor did he have?TONY: You could say...Well, a lot of
kids were afraid of him because he was big and he was explosive.VITO: He was strong?TONY: Very much so
VITO: Again, he was how tall
about?TONY: I ‘d say 6'2" - 6'3"VITO: And about how much did he
weigh?TONY: Oh! Easy...easy...easy 200.VITO: That's a 15-year-old?TONY: Easy!.VITO: But very strong?TONY: Very strong.VITO: Do you remember any kinda sports or any
kinda other activities he was involved in?TONY: Wrestling.VITO: Wrestling?TONY: Yes! We had sorta like a
wrestling thing at Hughes...and the coach was trying to...he wanted to develop
a wrestling team to participate in the
citywides and Adolf was one of the guys that he really had pegged as
being aggressive enough, and having the demeanor, and having the killer
instinct to be a good wrestler.VITO: Okay, Okay.TONY: And he taught us all the
techniques and he competed...(laughs)...I was...I thought I was, at that time,
I thought I was a pretty good athlete but...VITO: Well, you were big yourself.TONY: I was big, but he could pin me.VITO: Okay.TONY: He pinned me, no problem.VITO: Did he give him a lot of fights back
then?TONY: No. VITO: No?TONY: Surprisingly so......excuse
me, I'm sorry.VITO: It's okay.TONY: Surprisingly so, no..VITO: Okay, okay.
TONY: Because at school he'd carried himself... it was a tough school too, and so he had had
to build already a reputation not to be someone to mess with.VITO: Okay.TONY: I mean this is … This is a city
school in New York. We're not taking about Greenwich, Connecticut. There's no
boy scouts at this school and if there were, I didn't know where they'd met.VITO: Okay, okay. Now I know we're, you know,
we're talking about that night and we kind of segue off of it, but that's okay because the things we're talking
about are important for that night. What happens next? I know in some of your
comments to Bobby Kennedy, something triggers where you wanna get away from
these guys?TONY: Well, I had been in trouble that
TONY: And I had gotten arrested in
Greenwich for ... being a little "hellion", so my mother had told me
that I had to catch the last train ... and they had
made some statements also that, you know, we just gotta get into something,
"I'm not going outta here unsatisfied."VITO: Who said that?TONY: Bur and Adolf.VITO: What did you tend – what did
that mean - unsatisfied?TONY: Well, we had been talking
about...this night we’ve been talking about "caveman".VITO: Okay.TONY: And so...VITO: This is the night that
Martha died?TONY: This was the Martha.
She died that night. And this is … the kind of conversation that had been going
on since we got on the train. So it had gone on for three or four hours
Okay...Both when you were sober and now ...?TONY: and it got a little bit more
exacerbated once we… because they were like "where are the
bitches?"VITO: Okay.TONY: And so...it was...It got a little
bit more ... out of hand and so ... taking into account what my mother says,
she's like "you gotta go?", you know, "you have got to come
back."VITO: Okay.TONY: "You can go to Greenwich but
you gotta come back … catch the last train." Last train was like either
9:35 or 9:40.
TONY: So I had X amount of time to get
to the train station. I already had my ticket. And I asked them, you know,
"Hey, I'm leaving, you guys wanna go with me?", "No, no, we're
going to stay the night. We're not going anyplace."
VITO: Okay. I think you mentioned in
one of these reports something about the golf club?TONY: AH! Everybody touched that club.
I should say it those clubs. Everybody in Belle Haven touched those clubs. We
used to hit balls behind the house.VITO: Okay.TONY: And we used to also hit balls at
cars.VITO: Whose clubs were these?TONY: They were Skakels’ clubs.VITO: Skakels' clubs. Okay, where
would you get them from?TONY: Just picked them off the back
porch.VITO: Okay. anytime were they
ever on their yard at all...?TONY: They were all over. Yeah, I mean,
the back porch to me was this extension of their yard.VITO: Okay.TONY: So they’re just laying around.
You can walk and trip over one.VITO: OK. That night that Martha
died, did anybody walk around with a golf club in their hand?TONY: We had a couple of people with
clubs there that night.VITO: Like who?TONY: I had a club. I picked one up and
swung it. Everybody did...I'm telling you those clubs went through tons of
peoples’ hands.VITO: Now, swinging at a golf
ball or just holding it or walking with it or what?TONY: There were some...There were some
kids that had picked them up and would start walking with them, I know
that...and I'm not gonna sit here and fabricate for anything but I picked up
one, VITO: Right.TONY: Bur picked up one, Adolf picked
up one, Jeff Byrnes picked up one and we were like goofing around.
VITO: Okay. Where you guys walked
around with it at all?TONY: No, I mean, I had swung it and
put mine down...I was just. I didn't even put in down, I slung it back where
the bag. There was like a bag that was sort of laying there I just sort of
flung it back towards it like I didn’t … I mean it wasn't mine; I didn't care. VITO: Did Bur or Adolf say
anything while they were holding the club at all? Anything that they were going
to do or did they hold it longer than you or anybody else?TONY: Oh, yeah. They were using em as
sort of like walking sticks.VITO: They were?TONY: Yes.VITO: Okay. Was any comments made about doing something
with the golf club ... at all?TONY: At this, at this moment, I can't
recall...VITO: That's fine. TONY: There were. You know, I'm trying to recall every conversation and
every little piece but ... you know...Due to… I'm a little bit nervous.VITO: That's fine, nah that's fine. You're
doing a good job.
TONY: You think so? I can't recall everything ... I
apologize.VITO: Now, you leave to go home, is it because
your mother says you have to be home a
certain time or is it because of the action of these two other guys?TONY: I had to go home regardless but
their actions helped me make my decision a lot easier. VITO: Why?TONY: Because I could always call my
mom and say "Mom, I gonna stay in Greenwich or could you come pick me
up."VITO: Okay. What were they doing by the time
you parted ways with them that night? How bad were they?TONY: It was loud.VITO: Okay.TONY: It was very very rowdy. They had
embarrassed some of the girls that had come into the circle.VITO: How..?TONY: Just making comments about sexual
overtures and stuff and it just … it was uncomfortable.VITO: Okay.TONY: And I knew those girls. Some of
them…VITO: So Was Martha one of the girls?TONY: Martha was one of the girls that
was there but, you have to understand,
Martha came in and then she just...I think she got fed up with what was
going on and she went over and then there … There was a group that was sorta
standing over by the Skakel's house and then Michael came in, Tom came in, then
they’d leave.. and then - So it was sort
of…VITO: It was mix and match…TONY: It was a mix…Yeah... It wasn’t
anything organized. VITO: Okay. What was the last things you
remember Adolf or Bur saying to you before you parted company with them? ...
(pause) ... Crawford Mills states that "They were outside of the yard,
they took the golf club and they were gonna get a girl. And you said you didn't
want any part of it and you went back to the railroad station.TONY: That's correct.VITO: Okay. Do you remember who said that?TONY: Bur said it jokingly if my memory
serves me correct, but I just remembered hearing
those words and saying, "You know what. I've had enough."VITO: Okay.
So them saying the words while holding the golf club?TONY: Yes.VITO: "Im gonna get me a girl"TONY: Yes, but it’s you know, "I
got my caveman club."VITO: Right.TONY: "And I'm gonna go and grab
somebody, pull them by the hair and do what cavemans do."VITO: Okay. And again, hate to
repeat it again, but "I'm gathering caveman-style is a club and dragging
your women away by the hair."TONY: Exactly. VITO: Okay ... so you said
good-bye to them that night, right?TONY: (laughs)...I just said.
"I’ll see you later" I was just… That’s VITO: Did they want you to stay?TONY: ...They said,
"Are you sure you don’t want to stay? ... I’m like “nah! My mom wants me
to go ... Cuz you know, my mom was an
excuse but I knew better, I knew that I needed to go, cuz this wasn't a
situation I really wanted to be in, I
didn't feel comfortable with being that out of control, know what they were
…Who are you gonna go to?VITO: You’re
saying out of control, how bad do you think these guys were by the time you
left them? Capable of what?TONY: Anything.
TONY: Anything. VITO: Because of what? Their
demeanor? Because of the drugs? because of the alcohol? What? What?TONY: The combination…
VITO: A combination?
TONY: of the…
Of everything, plus the whole dare
factor. There was always a dare between those two, I mean, they were always
trying to outdo each other and they would just push each other, push each
other, push each other…...VITO: Where one would dare the
other…?TONY: Yeah. Bur would push Adolf
because Adolf, for some reason, had a chip on his shoulder or he felt that, you
know, that he just wasn't up to snuff or whatever.VITO: OK. When one of them would dare the
other one .. Would that person wind up doing the dare?TONY: Oh, no doubt.VITO: Really?TONY: No doubt. I can… There's countless episodes in the city and …
that I could, you know, spend an hour explaining to you, you know...VITO: Like?TONY: Grabbing women in the city,
asking you know people crazy directions, and snatching their bags and all kinds
VITO: Okay. Okay. So you just
said "I’m out of here" and you left?TONY: I left.
VITO: OK. When was the next time
you saw them?TONY: I saw them that Monday. The
following Monday.VITO: Okay.TONY: And .. uh ... and... it was… it
was not a pleasant experience because there was overtures made about ...
"Well, I got mine."VITO: Okay. And who said that?TONY: Uh ... Adolf said it
to me .. that day ... and then Bur, in a round about way, says "yeah, we
did what we had to do, and blah, blah, blah."
VITO: Well, you got
TONY: I hate to say
"blah blah blah" It’s sort of it’s ……
VITO: You gotta expound on that a
little bit for me.TONY: It's toughVITO: I mean whatever they…
TONY: "We did it. We
achieved the caveman."VITO: They
TONY: Yeah, and so….
VITO: Both of them?TONY: In different situations, yes.
But…VITO: Did you say to them, who,
what, where?TONY: No.VITO: Okay.TONY: 'coz I knew who they
were implying… ...it was so obvious because, I mean the next day, the next DAY, it was all over,
I mean, it was everywhere.VITO: Right.TONY: And my mom at that point said,
"there is no way you're going back to Greenwich."VITO: Did you suspect anything when you heard
about...How did you hear that she got killed?TONY: My mom brought me the New York
Times the next morning.VITO: Okay. Okay. TONY: She says "Don't you know
this girl?" I go "Yes, I
do."VITO: And what did you think when you read that?
Before you even met up with them.TONY: I just freaked out. The
whole...It was ... You have to understand I had never seen anything or heard
anything like this. No one had ever...at this point in time, in terms of a
friend, had ever ..had suffered anything like this.VITO: Okay.
TONY: I lived in, you know, neighborhoods that were
kinda tough but no one had ever been, that I knew, had ever been killed. I know
kids and family members that have been beaten up or shot but No, NEVER killed.VITO: Right. So they said to you "We've
achieved one of.our.." according to some of the things that you have said
"We've achieved one of our fantasies."TONY: Yes. Yes. VITO: "We got her cavemen style."TONY: Exactly. And I didn't even, at
that point, I didn't wanna ask any questions because I was afraid for myself
and ... I already knew...VITO: You knew who were they talking about?TONY: I knew exactly who they were
talking about.VITO: Who were they talking about?TONY: They were talking about Martha
Moxley.VITO: Who would say this .. before .. a month
before? .. Who would say this constantly… I want it again.? TONY: Adolf.VITO: Adolf?TONY: Yes.
VITO: And so now, AFTER the murder, the two of them
are saying?TONY: They were bragging. They were
bragging about it.VITO: That “we got her caveman style"TONY: But it was...It was always...they would take
me to the limit … and never mention the name but I mean come on... There wasn’t
..VITO: Ok, what other things
did they say? I mean, as far as doing what to this woman?TONY: "We grabbed her, we got
her..." Uhh .... VITO: That's alright, take your time, whatever you
can remember.TONY: You have to understand ... for
someone that tried to just ... as a teenager, I wanted to run away from this
and as an adult, I tried to block it out because I felt that it wasn't...it
wasn't my place.VITO: Through all those early years, why didn't you
come forward to anybody?TONY: For one thing, I was afraid of
being automatically painted as a suspect. My family didn't have money to defend
me from a lawsuit that, you know, It' would be easy...if they can convict
Michael Skakel on circumstantial evidence, I think I would be an easier
conviction...VITO: Okay.TONY: ...than Michael.VITO: Why?TONY: I didn't have the resources to
defend myself.VITO: Okay, okay.TONY: And Michael's family has much
more resources than mine.VITO: How did you get to the train station
that night? Do you remember?TONY: I walked and hitchhiked, and if
you asked me who picked me up, I couldn't tell you...VITO: That's fine.TONY: ...but it was someone from Belle
Haven...It was someone from Belle Haven, it was....oh, man....I knew the family
because....VITO: That's okay. So you were home that
night. You were …TONY: I was home. I was home. VITO: Okay. Is your mother still living?TONY: Yes, she is.VITO: Okay. So
she.....down the road, if anybody asks, she could verify that.
TONY: Could we stop for a second?
VITO: Sure, shut the tape off a minute.
[A break in the tape occurs. 7:41:49
– 7:42:22 PM cut. 33 seconds]
AL DRESSLER: Go ahead.
VITO: Okay, we took a break for a
TONY: Thank you.
VITO: Tony's cellphone... Was that
correct Tony? Someone called you on your cel phone.
TONY: That’s correct.
VITO: Okay. so they admitted to taking a girl caveman style and
the definition that they always gave you, and that you understood it to be, was
with a club...TONY:
VITO: ...by force,
TONY: ...dragging off...
VITO: and dragging the girl off by her hair.
TONY: That's correct.
VITO: Okay, and you do realize that's how Martha was killed?
TONY: If I told you that I've never, ever...I never wanted to know.
TONY: That's how...how panicked I was. I didn't wanna know.
TONY: I didn't want – I’ve never - To
this day, I've never to looked at any autopsy reports, I've never read any
books, any magazine articles...I DONT WANT
VITO: Okay. Was this brought up any other times?
TONY: It was brought up a couple more times, and, you have to understand, after that, I was trying to create distance.VITO:
TONY: I was trying to create distance because my life had turned around, I'd
gotten a scholarship to go to a prep-school in Texas …
TONY: … to do what I wanted to do with my life
And so I just started creating distance but they would, you know, bring
up...they would laugh about it, "Hey, when was the last time, you know,
you saw your favorite uh .. Flintstone character do the Wilma and uh...the
“gr…” , oh gosh, there was a term that they used, "to grab Wilma."
TONY: And I was just, they made a joke out of it. I didn't think it was funny
and so I stopped hanging out with them, slowly but surely, and as things sort
of dissipated, I just dropped off.
VITO: Okay. Even though they never mentioned Martha's name to you...
TONY: I knew who it was.VITO:
You knew who it was? I mean, do you believe in all you heart that they killed
her that night?
TONY: I think that they were there.
TONY: I think that...
VITO: Well we know that they were there?
TONY: Oh no, there's no doubt...they were there when the murder took place.
VITO: Okay. What does that mean though? You have to explain that to me.
TONY: See there's another party that we really don't talk about and he had fear
in his heart, and that was Jeff Byrnes.
VITO: Right. Definitely.TONY:
See, he had made mention to me several occasions that, you know, something bad
happens with bad guys and once, you know, he was sort of reaching out to me to
help him, and I said "Jeff, I can't do anything to help you. What am I
going to do?"
TONY: What am I gonna do? What do you know that I don't know?
And I tried to bait him and he….
VITO: Was this after the murder?TONY: It was after the murder.and he was like, just, Tony, you gotta
stay clear, they’re "bad guys", They’re gonna get you…
Adolf and Bur?
VITO: Okay. What did he say about them, they're gonna what?
TONY: They're gonna get you in trouble and they’ve already… they're already in
trouble; you just need to keep your distance.
VITO: Okay. Did he explain anything as to what it
TONY: Briefly, briefly.
VITO: Ok. What?
TONY: Just. He said they had some
involvement in some things that had happened in Greenwich and I wouldn't be
surprised if the police come and question them but... To… Our to- I mean, this
is what's so amazing about this whole thing. No one ever came. No one ever
asked me. No one...Mrs. Walker didn't even mention that I was at her house that
VITO: Okay. okay.
TONY: I mean, this is the most ridiculous thing. I’m…
VITO: That as far as you know, they…
TONY: The thing is It could've been so
much that I was always there that she
thought I was one of...
TONY: You know there’s so many kids
there going through that house.
VITO: Did Adolf and Bur stay in Belle Haven that
TONY: Yes, they did. They stayed with the Byrnes.
VITO: They did? You know this for a fact?
TONY: I know that for a fact.. You could stay at their house and they would
never know though.VITO:
TONY: The parents would never know.
TONY: It was a huge house.
VITO: They told you they stayed there?
VITO: They did.
Yes. and Jeff told me they had also spent the night that night.
VITO: Okay, so Jeff told you that they stayed there and Adolf and Bur told you
they stayed in Belle Haven at the Byrne's house that night
TONY: That is correct.
VITO: Okay, I’m just trying to...
TONY: Before I left, they were like...I said "What're you guys gonna
do?" "We're gonna stay at the Burn's" "Okay, I'm out, bye,
VITO: Okay. So do you
believe that they killed her? Either the two of them or possibly the .....TONY: I think they were definitely
involved.VITO: Okay. Adolf and Bur?TONY: Yes, there's no doubt in my mind
that they were involved.VITO: Do you think anybody else would've been
involved with them at all?TONY: I think there could've been other
witnesses, but I'm not really sure.VITO: Okay. They did say to you "We've
accomplished what we wanted to do, we satisfied our...uh .. "TONY: "We satisfied our caveman
urge."VITO: "our caveman urge."TONY: Yes.VITO: "And we got a girl and we took her
caveman style."TONY: That’s correct.VITO: They said before they wanted to do it?TONY: They said that … building up to that. I mean
this was like...I mean it’s like you and I talking about … if we’re in the
middle of a desert … having a glass of
water, “I sure would like a glass of water.”VITO: Right, right.TONY: It was...to the point
of...whatever.VITO: And when was the last time you saw either
one of them?TONY: I saw Adolf...one night, he was a
doorman at a movie theater, I was with my mother and I had to be a freshman in
college and he...we were at the Omni-palace, which is an Indian restaurant,
it’s on Central Park, I can't remember the exact street, VITO: Okay.TONY: and my mother and I were leaving
and he - we walked and we took a left hand turn walking back away from
the...I'm trying to remember if we were walking towards Fifth Avenue or not...VITO: Right.TONY: and..Fifth or Sixth...and he was
the doorman at a movie theater and I just sorta...and my mom was like "You
were shocked; you looked liked you were about to urinate on yourself."
VITO: So you started to
breaking away from the two of em after this....TONY: Oh, immediately.VITO: Why? Because of this murder?TONY: Because of the murder, because of
their...they're just...they were unpredictable. I mean, I could tell you all
kinds of stories about being in the subway and all the crazy stuff that used to
take place.. and it was just...it was too much. It was too much. And I, like I
said I had already been in trouble with the police in Greenwich.VITO: RightTONY: And so what I'm thinking in my
mind is "I gotta get out of this situation. This is not healthy for
me."VITO: Okay.TONY: This is not good for me.VITO: So that was the last time you him at a
movie theater, how about...TONY: Bur? VITO: Yeah. Bur.TONY: Probably...we finished the school
year...and I was like, [he waves] you know, that was it.VITO: Again, because you felt in your heart
you knew what they did because...TONY: Yeah...exactly. They asked me
what I was gonna do the next year.. Are you coming back to Hughes. I was very
vague. .I never really told them what I was gonna do because I didn't want to have
any involvement.VITO: So you’ve never had any other contact with
them throughout the years?TONY: None whatsoever.VITO: None of them have reached out to you?TONY: No.VITO: At all? And you've had no reason to want to...TONY: None at all.VITO: You know...call, or contact themTONY: No postcards, no...no wires, no
candygrams, no nothing.
VITO: Okay, okay. We're
only going to keep you a couple more minutes, we’ll get you right out of here.
We're gonna wrap up a couple of things. Let me just get back to this point
because this is the main point...the main gist of this whole conversation. They
were obsessed with Martha Moxley?TONY: Adolf was.VITO: Adolf was.TONY: But Bur … Bur put him up...he
would...he would fuel the fire.
TONY: I mean because anybody
else...if I were to say… It would have just have been ...Adolf and I, I was
like "you know what, you're wasting of your time, forget about her. Forget
about her. There's other girls here."VITO: And Bur would...?TONY: Bur : "Nah, you can do it, you can get
her."VITO: Okay. So the talk
before the murder, like you said, it really built your crescendo, okay, of
"We're gonna get a girl caveman style."TONY: That is correct.VITO: Okay. After Martha's murder...Well, that
night, they did say they were gonna get a girl caveman style. One of the
reasons why you also left them, as well as your mother.TONY: Yeah, but the most important part
was...and I'm not trying to be...VITO: Yeah, no, no...TONY: ..is my mother because that's my...VITO: no...that's fine.TONY: ...that's my guiding force.VITO: While walking around with the club whether it
was Jeff Byrnes and the two of them, the comment was "We're gonna get a
girl tonight."TONY: Oh, yeah.VITO: The night of the murder?TONY: The night of the murder.VITO: Okay. Then right after the murder, when you
met up with both Adolf and Bur, they told you "We got...We did it."?TONY: "We did it. We achieved our
fantasy."VITO: "We achieved our fantasy. We got the girl
caveman style," and even though they didn't mention Martha Moxley's
name...TONY: I knew.VITO: You knew right away because that's all the
talk was before?TONY: I mean...you didn’t have to
say...It's … I’m gonna rob...I'm gonna rob the First National Bank...VITO: Right.TONY: On Friday the First National Bank is robbed.
VITO: They say...
TONY: "Yeah, we did it, we did it." Hey
just don’t mention the First National Bank.VITO: And you were freaked out for a long time
because of that?TONY: Very much so, very much so.VITO: Okay. All right, now let me ask you this,
Tony, no one has offered you anything by coming forward and giving this
statement.TONY: Not at all.VITO: All right. Neither myself who...this the first
time myself or Al have met you, right?TONY: That is correct.VITO: We've talked over the phone once or twice. I
did not promise you anything to give to you to give a statement of this nature.TONY: That is correct.VITO: And no one in the Skakel family or connected
with the Skakel family has offered you anything to give the statement.TONY: That is correct.VITO: You've come forward out of your own free will?TONY: Not. Trust me, I really don't
want to get involve with this but yes, I did.VITO: Okay. You told me, though, that you felt that
an innocent man was in jail.TONY: That is true.VITO: And you needed the truth to come out, is that
right?TONY: I wanted my story to come out;
And I believe – It is the truth and it should be something that, that
hopefully...VITO: You believe that a hundred percent?TONY: I swear to God.VITO: Okay, okay. Al, did
you have any questions on your part? One more minute, Tony. You...Did you
contact Bobby Kennedy yourself?TONY: No, I did not.VITO: It was done through Crawford Mills?TONY: Crawford spoke to Bob Kennedy and the first
three or four times that he called me, I didn't take his call.VITO: Okay. So you're saying
to me then basically, even though you know the truth of this crime, you're not
looking for the limelight?TONY: I don't want ...I'm not
interested in any...any publicity. I don't wanna be involved in this at all.
I'm not interested in 15 minutes or 15 years of fame. I'm interested in the
preservation of my family and trying to take care of my kids, my family.VITO: You feel...You do feel the wrong person is in
jail for this?TONY: I definitely know that to be true.VITO: Do feel that Burt Tinsley and Adolf Hasbrouck
should be in jail for this?TONY: I think that they had involvement
in this. I know that there’s no statute
of limitations ... so one or both should...should be serving time for this.VITO: Okay and this is something...Let me just finish
with asking you this, why should I believe you after all this time?TONY: There is no reason for you to
believe me. All I have is a story to tell. I was there. I knew all the parties,
having watched the police and all the...terribly missed...I mean,...this
was...to me, it was an easy...pull in everybody and see what falls out. They
didn't pull in everybody,VITO: Right.TONY: and when you have suspects, that have been
described by other people, seeing them walk around in Belle Haven and the
police not following up and the prosecutors not following it up, it's sorta
makes you kinda weary. They’ve had the evidence. They just never took the time
to tru...they all just beaded in on that one family.VITO: Right.
TONY: And unfortunately for him, he had a bullseye
on him and they… based on...on the evidence that they had, they were able to
convict him. But he's not...he's not guilty.VITO: Right.TONY: He may have been guilty of a lot
of things, but...VITO: RightTONY: ...you know, he's not guilty of
this. He's… guilty of poor judgment.VITO: Right.TONY: But, you know, I'm not his judge nor his jury.VITO: Right.TONY: So, why should you believe me? I
was there. I know who was there. I know what the...the atmosphere was. People
still don't understand what was going on in
Greenwich at that time. There was a lot of drugs, a lot of drinking by under-aged - minors...VITO: Right.TONY: And you had outsiders coming in
that were volatile and you mixed those things together with un - ...you know,
there's no supervision, you're gonna have...something’s gonna happen.VITO: Okay.
TONY: And do I feel responsible? Yes and no. I feel
responsible that I need to come forth and give my statement. I didn't goad
anybody into doing anything. My mistake in judgement is not...I mean, I sat on
this story the whole time...during the trial, because...there's no way, there's
no way we ever thought that Michael Skakel would get convicted.VITO: Okay.TONY: No way.VITO: Okay. Al, is
there a minute or two that I can wrap up with him on there?
AL: Yeah.VITO: Okay.
AL: We’ve got like another five…
Just correct me on this, we'll wrap this up with some of the key points
of what you said and then we're done.TONY: Okay.VITO: You've come forward because you know
Michael Skakel did not commit the crime?TONY: That's correct. I mean, I came
forward because my story got out. I…VITO: Right.TONY: I kept it under wraps.VITO: Sure.TONY: And, you know, we were talking
amongst friends. One of the parties...is also… who’s also… is passed away so.
VITO: Jeff Byrne?TONY: Yes.VITO: Okay.TONY: So… that even made me sort of run
to the hills even worse. . Because I knew Geoff knew as much if not more than I
did.VITO: Okay. He took it to the grave probably?TONY: Probably.VITO: Okay, okay. Two
individuals, again, Adolf Hasbrouck, Burt Tinsley. The whole Caveman bit that
you explained to me, was accomplished that night.TONY: From what I was told, yes.VITO: They told you this before the murder they were
gonna do this, up to the night of the murder, before you said your good-bye to
them and then a few days later when you caught up with them again, "We've
achieved our fantasy; we got the girl caveman style."TONY: That is correct.VITO: And again, the cave
man style, I'll just wrap up with this, club in the hand. attacking a girl and
dragging her away like a caveman.TONY: That is correct.VITO: Okay. Is that all correct? I'm not trying to
put any words in your mouth.TONY: You're not putting words in my
mouth, those are statements that I’ve
made.VITO: And before we started this videotape, neither
myself or Al told anything to say or how to say it.TONY: That is correct.VITO: Okay, everything you've told us of the truth?
TONY: That is...VITO: So help you God?TONY: So help me God to the best of my
knowledge those are the things that took place during that time period.VITO: Okay. Tony, we’re going to TONY: I'm missing names and I
VITO: It’s a long time ago. It’s okay. We're gonna be shutting off the tape right now and I
wanna thank you for your time.TONY: Thank you.VITO: Okay.
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